The CRE Connection · Samy Soussan

00:01 - Samy (Host)
Okay, welcome everyone back to another episode of the CR Reconnection podcast. I'm here today with a very special guest, mr Andy Wiener from Rockstep Capital. Andy, it's an honor to have you on the show today. So, andy, we're going to get into all the investments and the incredible work that you do as retail investors in Houston. One of the questions I always love to ask our guests is what did Andy Wiener look like as a little kid, where did you grow up, what was your background like and how did you get into real estate?

00:31 - Andy (Host)
Yeah, so, sammy, I was born in Houston. My grandfather started a chain of clothing stores here in Houston it was our family name, called Wiener's Stores, and these stores were about 20,000 square feet men's, women's, kids, levi's, nike, value pricing. We ended up with 159 stores, a decent sized regional chain with stores in Texas and Louisiana, half of them in the big cities like Houston, san Antonio, dallas, new Orleans, and so I worked in the family business for 12 years. New Orleans, and so I worked in the family business for 12 years. I ran operations with me, I was in charge of all the stores. I was in charge of real estate, logistics, hr, accounting, finance. So I really got to understand retailing, the understanding of markets. I visited all markets around the country and certainly within our territory, but I grew up in retail.

01:27
And then, in 1997, I started my own shopping center investment company called Rockstep Capital, and we invest in shopping centers primarily in what we call hometown markets, secondary, tertiary markets. We currently have properties in 11 states. We've got 22 properties, three property types. We have grocery anchor centers, open air, either neighborhood or a little bit bigger than neighborhood centers. We call them power centers. At TJ, maxx, ross, best Buy, five below with restaurants around those called power centers, and we also own 14 enclosed malls. We've built or acquired close to 10 million square feet since 1997, based in Houston, vertically integrated 65 employees.

02:21 - Samy (Host)
Got it. So, andy, how do you go from being in the retail business, which is direct, consumer-based, to focusing exclusively on real estate? What kind of propelled you in that direction?

02:32 - Andy (Host)
Well being in the retail business. I was involved in shopping centers and when I decided to start my real estate investment company, being in retail was a natural place to go. My first four deals were Walmart super center, anchored shopping center developments. So Wiener's biggest competitor was Walmart and I ended up doing my first deals with Walmart and they were all in the Houston region, one up north and three towards Galveston and so that was my true experience in starting out in retail. And then I ended up trying to do a Walmart deal in Navasota, texas, which is near College Station, north of Houston, and a company called Tractor Supply wanted the spot that I had under contract and I ended up doing my first. Tractor Supply wanted the spot that I had under contract and I ended up doing my first Tractor Supply store. They're the country's largest farm and ranch store. And I ended up doing 12 more Tractor Supplies in Southeast Texas and Southern Louisiana and I developed a true love of secondary and tertiary markets, of small towns, of hometowns, and I liked them because they're very easy to understand, very easy to understand risk in those markets and you could operate with honor. Everybody wants you to succeed. There was no backbiting, there was no ugly stuff. It was just everyone working to try to do something to benefit the community, and so I developed a model based upon that.

04:09
And then in 2008, during the GFC, I started buying second-generation shopping centers, and my first second-generation shopping center I purchased was in a city called Vicksburg, mississippi, and I came up with a model. I don't know if it was deliberate or by accident, but we combined local investors in Vicksburg. We ended up getting 17 business leaders from Vicksburg, mississippi, to invest in two shopping centers in that market Vicksburg, mississippi, to invest in two shopping centers in that market. We found a local lender, river Hills Bank, community bank, based in that region, and we started that strategy of finding great assets at a great price in a wonderful secondary tertiary market with local investors and local lenders. And we've repeated that process again and again.

05:10
We like the idea, particularly in the mall space, of getting local investors in as part of the equity. And now it's such a strong strategy that we won't buy a mall unless we actually get local investors in on a deal. Why? Because they reduce risk, they help on entitlements, they help on property taxes, they help on incentives, they help with rumors, they help with relationships with city departments, police mayor. They're effectively deputized leasing agents for alternative uses. They're on the board of the community college. They're on the board of the hospital district. They're on the board of economic development. They know more than anybody what's happening in alternative uses and we're experts in retail restaurants. But having part of our group the community leaders who are piped into everything going on, it helps reduce risk and increase opportunities.

06:11
The exciting part in terms of the mall space is that there's a lot and let's call it $50 billion of insolvent debt that's coming due over the next three to three and a half years. That debt's going to get repriced. These properties are going to get repriced at dramatically lower basis, oftentimes at land value, at mid-teens cap rates. So we bought a property recently in Kansas from a major pension company pension company and we bought it at a 17 cap unlevered. We had local investors, we had a local lender. Our local investors were on the board of the local lender 50% debt, 50% equity. Our cash on cash returns were well north of 20% and we've shown dramatic increases of net operating income since we bought those properties. So those are the tight kind of deals we look for in the mall space, particularly in secondary markets.

07:13
The buyer has been dominated by several companies that basically operate an asset depletion strategy. They let the properties rot, they don't pay expenses, they don't pay taxes, they piss off retailers. We are more of a white knight for these communities. We go in there, we invest in the asset. We try to make hometown America's better. That's our mission by bringing capital and expertise to assets that affect quality of life.

07:47 - Samy (Host)
So, andy, you touched on so many points over there and I just want to kind of recircle back to the one point you mentioned about the reason why you're so invested in small hometown America. Can you elaborate a little bit more about that? What kind of connected you with specifically that area of expertise? Why there, why not larger?

08:09 - Andy (Host)
We think we can get better deals in that type of geography, Sammy. Okay, we believe that you can find the same credit quality at dramatically lower price with less competition with less competition, and you can, you know. Look, if you buy a property at a 13 or 15 or 17 cap and you put 50% leverage at a seven or seven and a half percent interest rate, that's a good deal. It's just a lot of cash on cash return. We like those type of opportunities.

08:41 - Samy (Host)
Understood. So I guess one of the questions that I would love to understand is malls are something that is a very hot topic. That's spoken about because a lot of people think malls are dead and they talk about zombie malls and stuff like that, and I'm always curious what key factors do you believe that contribute to a mall's long-term success, especially considering today's market?

09:08 - Andy (Host)
So a mall is a term for a type of property that was built in the 70s 80s. I call them multi-purpose real estate retail. There's some restaurant and you have the opportunity to shrink the amount of retail and bring in alternative uses at properties that are extremely well-located, with all utilities there, with parking fields already there, underutilized. So you can do multifamily, you can do hospitality.

09:43
We're doing a hockey arena in one of our markets 115,000 square foot hockey arena where the semi-professional Danes book as hockey team. So you can do storage, you can do all types of things. You can convert part of the boxes into junior anchors. So you're basically buying a multi-purpose piece of real estate that was formerly known as a mall and you're buying it at land value with cash flow of mid-teens cap rates unlevered. That allows you the opportunity to either harvest the cash or have time to maximize value by converting all or part of it to an alternative use.

10:34 - Samy (Host)
I've seen a lot of those like pickleball courts and whatnot.

10:37 - Andy (Host)
It's office or medical office, or demolish to put in hospitality. There's all these different. You've got great real estate. They were built at great locations.

10:51 - Samy (Host)
Understood. So when approaching the opportunity to capitalize on the deals, you have to reach out to investors. You mentioned you had to find local investors. How do you typically go about creating that process where obviously you have to close on a deal within a certain timeframe? Can you elaborate a little bit on that?

11:10 - Andy (Host)
Let me walk you through that we are converting our capital structure from a deal-by-deal structure to a fund structure. We're doing that right now. We have a new fund called Hometown America. We have a new fund called Hometown America $50 million closed-end fund, 18-plus targeted IRR, 2x multiple, 8 to 9 pref, depending upon how much you invest. The minimum is $100,000, 5 to 7 properties, a fund committed capital structure, because the sellers on the most opportunistic opportunities are requiring that you have committed capital in order to win the deal.

11:52
So what will happen is, when there's an opportunity, the fund will buy the property while you're under contract. Usually, before you're under contract, you'll get commitments from local investors. You develop a network, a list of local investors. You reach out to them. You tell them the story. If we can't find local business leaders who care about their community, who believe in Andy, who believe in Rockstepp, who believe in that asset and believe in that community, if we can't find any of those that's part of our due diligence We'll walk with you. The fund will have JV co-investment opportunities at the asset level, because local investors will invest at the asset level, not at the fund level. They're not going to want to invest in the fund, they're going to want to invest in their city and in addition, there might be some of our investors who want a bigger slug of that investment. They can co-invest as well. The structure they will have five to seven investments and each investment will have co-investment opportunities, particularly for local investors.

13:02 - Samy (Host)
Interesting. So if you had 100% of the deal, you'll take 50% debt. 40% would be part of the fund and the remaining 10% would be local investors. That's really interesting. That means you have the funds ready to execute on the deal regardless.

13:16 - Andy (Host)
You're able to get the deal. You're able to play. You don't want to overpay. You're able to play, that's what you want to do.

13:21 - Samy (Host)
I love that this is more of a culture question that I want to talk a little bit about rock step.

13:28 - Andy (Host)
So you might know this, sammy, you might not, but the name rock step is not a word in the dictionary. But dancers know what a rock step is. Rock step is a dance move. I love big band era music 1950s, 1960s, the era of big band Frank Sinatra, ella Fitzgerald, peggy Lee, Rosemary Clooney, sammy Davis Jr that's big band swing music. When you do swing dancing couples dancing, ballroom dancing you rock step. When you switch directions on count seven and eight, one to three, one to three, rock step, ball pivot change is called a rock step.

14:15
As a company, our goal is to be nimble, to be light on our feet, to listen to the music in the industry and, when there are opportunities or problems, switch direction quickly. Even though it's not a word in the dictionary, everybody at Rockstep uses it as a verb. Hey guys, sam, we got a problem here, we got a Rockstep. Everybody knows what it means. We also have 25 rules of behavior at our company that I wrote and we have a rule of the week. These are the behaviors that we require everybody in our company to live by how we treat each other, how we treat our communities, our investors, our professionals, our lawyers, our accountants, our architects and people can hold us accountable. We're not perfect, but I wrote these rules. You know what we call these rules let me guess the rock steps we call them the rock steps.

15:14
Good guess, sam, you're right. Here's a list. We have it on our on rockstepcom. I'm dead serious, religious about this stuff. We have a rock step of the week, monday 10 am. The whole company, all 65 of us, get on a team's call and talk about that rock step of the week. One person writes a three to four paragraph essay. What does that rock step mean to me personally and in my professional lives? And then that person, monday at 10 o'clock this week, is be positive, rock step 20. You have the power to choose your attitude. Choose to be optimistic and see the possibilities. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Optimism creates energy and energy creates success. This Monday, that's what we talked about. And then three additional people on the screen at random. What does it mean to be positive? Next week, rock Step 21 is. Take pride in your appearance to be doing it for nine years. It's how we hire people. It's how we fire people. Sammy, what are your favorite three rock steps and why? What are your most challenging three rock steps and why?

16:31 - Samy (Host)
my favorite, let's hear it.

16:33 - Andy (Host)
Rock step number do the right thing always. Why is that one of my favorites? Well, we're in the investment business, and when you're in the investment business it's a world of gray. So you've got to be extremely careful to figure out if you're doing the right thing on the details, and so it's very. We spend a lot of time saying, okay, what's the right thing to do here? My second favorite is be punctual. I'm a believer that punctuality for us, five minutes early is on time, and on time is late. Being on time is a sign of respect. My son would not want to get in the car to go to dinner until everybody else was in the car and then he would turn off his video game. Drove me nuts. Okay, drove me nuts. My third favorite is Rockstep 24, keep family first. If you don't take care of your health, if you don't take care of your family, you can't take care of Rockstep, and so that's really important.

17:33
I'll tell you my most challenging three. Rockstep number seven listen generously, I'm impatient. I'm not a great listener. When somebody's talking, I'm thinking about what I want to say. It is a terrible habit and I'm trying to get better. My wife will tell you this is a big problem of mine. Number two, step number eight speak straight I'm not confrontational. When there's a challenge or a problem, I'm not as quick as I should be on going at it and say hey, samu, we've got to talk, there's something that's not going right. It's not my favorite thing to do, and my third week one is rockset 25, keep Things Fun. My wife tells me, andy, you take the fun out of fun. Okay, so like there's zero fun in Andy, there's other good things about you, but fun is not one of them. So anyway, I'm spending a little more time on this than I probably should, maybe not.

18:32 - Samy (Host)
This is exactly what I want to hear about and I'll tell you why. Should maybe not? This is exactly what I want to hear about and I'll tell you why. Andy, one of the main focuses of why I created this podcast was the CRE connection is really, for me, about the intersection between relationships and real estate. I think one of the things I've admired a lot about you and just kind of when I heard about these rock steps, I kind of looked into a little bit and my favorite one is rock step number 10, be relentless about improvement. I am a fanatic about constantly reading and learning more about how to get better at whatever I'm doing. My wife always complains to me about how many books I buy and you know, and so I just I'm always reading and trying to get better. That's definitely my favorite. My probably my most challenging is would actually actually be be punctual.

19:18 - Andy (Host)
I'm going to be honest.

19:20 - Samy (Host)
I definitely struggle with that.

19:22 - Andy (Host)
It's and I get it. I get it, but anyway, these are. You know, we talk about these, we ritualize these and, as a result, we have a team that is extremely high performers. We have a team that is extremely high performers and who live by this. I mean we. You know Rocksteady, number 22, don't be a jerk. So we will not allow brilliant jerks to be in the company. Again, we're not perfect. We are not perfect, we're making. We made our mistake. People call me on this stuff. Andy, you're not following Rocksteady, this and this. They call me on it. I hate it, but that's their right.

19:59 - Samy (Host)
Andy, why is it that company culture is so important to you?

20:04 - Andy (Host)
I use the word, I don't use the word culture. I really look at behaviors. I want very specific behaviors of people. I just want to have a set of behaviors that create extremely high performance and truly respects everybody at our company and everybody we come in business with. Part of it is we rock set. Number two is practice A plusness and, as my son tells me dad, practice A-plusness and as my son tells me dad, there's a big difference between A-plusness and an A-ness. There is a difference. There is actually a difference between A-plus and everything else, and so that's a very high standard. It's our standard. You know, are we A-plus in anywhere the company? Now, okay, are we always trying to be improving and moving our, you know, from a C to a C? I mean, we're always trying to move better, better, better. That's what we want to do.

21:01
But it's the language we use. I use this language 10 times a day. I got to speak straight with you. You want the right thing. Be punctual. Let's keep family first. We got a problem out here. Take some time off, take care of your family. When things are okay, you come back.

21:18 - Samy (Host)
We'll cover it for you, I imagine you would probably not hire someone who didn't know about the rock steps. Is that something you would?

21:28 - Andy (Host)
Yeah, well, look, when you hire people, you never know what somebody is like until you live with them. That's just the truth. Okay, I got divorced. I thought I made the right call and you know you can try to make better decisions. But until you live with somebody you don't know how they're going to behave. In the little ways, and when there is a problem, you got to say, hey, we got a problem, a couple of issues on the rock set, let's talk about it. If they still can't follow the rock steps, you got to build a company with people who do so. If anybody wants to live by these rock steps and likes real estate, please reach out to us. We're hiring.

22:22 - Samy (Host)
I love that. We'll definitely make sure to make a note of that to people. So, out of the 25 core behaviors that you mentioned, Rocksteps, the Rockstep way out of the core 25, Rocksteps. Which of those would you believe are the most critical to driving success both within your team and the broader retail environment?

22:37 - Andy (Host)
God, that's a great question. I think it's the collection, sammy. There's some that are negative. You can't be a jerk. You got to be a plus. Listen, jenna, if you take a look at all of them. Be a brand ambassador. Show meaningful appreciation, provide solutions. Don't dump problems on people's back. When you have a problem, come with a solution. It's the package. I don't think there's one.

23:03 - Samy (Host)
You got to perfect yourself in all of them. I love it. Well, listen, that's fair, andy. If it's okay with you, I want to pivot back for a second to retail for a moment. The rise of e-commerce is something which everyone has seen to be tremendously helpful in our lives. I get enough packages from Amazon on a weekly basis. There's not enough room in our recycling box to empty those boxes. I'm curious how has that challenged brick and mortar retail and what strategies at Rockstep you've implemented to make your malls resilient in such a landscape?

23:36 - Andy (Host)
Let's talk about the impact of Amazon and COVID. Amazon and COVID really eliminated the weak retailers and those that survive have their own e-commerce strategy to effectively compete against Amazon and they also have very strong balance sheets. As a result, they're growing dramatically in an environment where there's very little new retail. If you take a look at multifamily, you see around Houston, around all the big cities, dozens and dozens and dozens of new product coming on the market. Here in the retail world there's hardly no new retail, very little new retail, but all these stores are expanding.

24:26
So if you own second generation space at below or well below, replacement costs, you've got a great asset because you've got the ability to drive rents higher and no one's going to compete with you. Or, if they will, they're going to be competing with you in new construction prices and you'll just be a better position. We like that story. The story for retail is a really good story compared to multifamily and industrial for many reasons. One is supply and demand. Number two is the concept of positive leverage. So in retail you've got positive leverage. You're buying something at let's call it a neighborhood center at a nine cap income divided by price 9%, and you're borrowing at seven and a quarter.

25:20 - Samy (Host)
So that's positive leverage.

25:22 - Andy (Host)
Or you're buying a mall at a 15 or 18 cap and you're borrowing at seven and a half. That's extremely high positive leverage In the multifamily space. You're buying something at five five and a half cap, but your interest rate is six, six and a quarter, six and a half. That's a negative level. So you have to have a prayer of dramatic growth in net operating income or you're toast. Right now, a lot of the multifamily that's been built. When they come to refi out of their construction loan, they're finding out that their loan is at $50 million but they can only borrow $45 or $40 because of this issue of debt service coverage and negative leverage and equities getting wiped out. So you want to avoid negative leverage and in retail today you have companies that are growing. No new product positive leverage. Amazon destroyed the weak retailers, those that have survived a very strong e-commerce platform.

26:38 - Samy (Host)
Interesting. So it's kind of this omnipresence where they're both online and in stores.

26:43 - Andy (Host)
Yes, and having a store is the lowest cost way of protecting your customers and getting new customers. And at SurePlay, e-commerce, the cost of getting new customers is really low at the beginning, but over time you have to buy new tenants, you have to buy new customers. Wayfair, the restaurant chain. The cost of acquiring a new customer is over $200. But the lifetime value of that customer is less than $200. It's not a good story. Pure play e-commerce retailers are opening up stores to reduce their cost of acquiring new customers.

27:25 - Samy (Host)
It's kind of the opposite of what everyone thought was happening post-COVID. One of the things I'm really curious about is you're going into small-town America. Is there any sort of government funding or other public-private partnerships that you leverage to help turn the distressed assets?

27:41 - Andy (Host)
around. Yeah, so the answer is there are many jurisdictions, many states that have incentives, some states don't, some states do, but we've been very successful working through incentives, working with our local investors to help maximize incentives.

28:02 - Samy (Host)
We've been very successful with that so just to take a step back for a second. When you launched rock step capital, I imagine you had a long-term vision. How has that kind of vision evolved over time, especially considering the fact that retail has shifted so much?

28:18 - Andy (Host)
yeah, so when I started rock step capital as a one-person organization, it was pure development and I had my closest friend partner with me to basically teach me the business and I did not realize when you do development, you're spending two to three years with no income and actually spending a lot of money paying for professional fees and all these other issues associated with development. It was extremely stressful. I did development until 2008, and then the cost of second-generation space was so much cheaper than new development. I switched the model from new development into second generation and I started syndicating, doing deal-by-deals in 2009, 2010. Now we're shifting our model to move away from syndication, deal by deal, into a fund model, because of the opportunity to get the best deals require committed capital. So, in other words, investors can't get the best deals unless they're in some kind of platform that can move with committed capital.

29:33 - Samy (Host)
This is more of a relationship-based question. I want to shift a little bit. I'm a big believer that relationships drive the business and, in particular, in real estate. First of all, how do you manage relationships with you mentioned? You have 22 assets across the country. How are you managing relationships with all the brokers? You have 22 assets across the country. How are you managing relationships with all the brokers around there? Are there any challenges? Because having assets in so many different areas does that become more complex. Can you share a little bit about that?

29:58 - Andy (Host)
Well, in terms of managing relationships, you want to manage relationships with brokers. You want to be honorable with them, you want to speak straight with them. You want to quickly tell them that you are priced out of an asset. Oftentimes you underwrite an asset and say, okay, the most we can pay to hit an 18 IRR is $20 million dollars to say, hey, we're out. A lot of times properties will come back because it's very difficult to close on deals in today's markets. You need to manage those relationships and also have very good relationships with retailers.

30:37
So I'm a retailer by background. We've got great relationships with the top 50 growing retailers, whether it's department stores, whether it's off-price stores, whether it's sector stores like Pestmark, petco or Best Buy, kohl's or some of the smaller growth retailers like Five Below, or the grocery guys like Aldi or Tractors and Harbor Freight All the growth retailers. We've got very good relationships with people and part of that is our people, because we're vertically integrated. We do our own in-house leasing, property management, underwriting, acquisition, disposition, construction management. Our people live by, or should live by, these rock steps and if you live by those rock steps, you will build great relationships.

31:30 - Samy (Host)
Got it and are there any resources that you've leveraged to improve your relationships around the country? Maybe it's via Zoom? Whatever tools you've used to keep and maintain good relationships?

31:45 - Andy (Host)
I think it's just constant contact. We're always talking. We're attending all the big conferences. We're setting up meetings. We're going to be in New York and to an athletes for the shopping center conference. We're meeting with 30 retailers, 40 retailers plus other brokers in the industry. Probably we're meeting with 25, 30 brokers. You know a full team. We have a booth there. So you go to these conferences, everybody congregates, you have fun, you connect with people. This is part of the rhythm of playing in the game.

32:21 - Samy (Host)
My LinkedIn platform is ABC. Most people translate that as always be closing and mine is always be connecting. I'm a big believer in that. A couple of last questions before we wrap up. Andy, there's a lot of things that I would love to learn more from you. I think you've shared a tremendous amount of value. Last question, before we get into rapid fire questions, is everyone has their unique approach to building relationships in the industry. What's your unique approach to building relationships?

32:50 - Andy (Host)
Well, there's several types of relationships you've got to build with. You've got to build them with the retailers, and that is, you've got to have a team of people. You've got to speak straight, you've got to understand how they make money and understand their pressure points. Number two you have to build relationships with communities where we have assets. That means relationships with investors, lenders and community leaders. And then you've got to build relationships with your team. I mean, your team is everything, and so you've got to invest in communication. You've got to invest in the rock steps, you've got to invest in celebration, and also with your professionals, with your lawyers, your mortgage broker, your architects. You've got to invest in these types of relationships.

33:42 - Samy (Host)
Understood. So that's definitely. I love how everything really does end up falling under the rock step way, because it's really impressive how you've managed to aggregate all these incredible unique behaviors to find not only who you are, but the way that you approach your business, your life and your relationships. So definitely something that's extremely admirable. So, lastly, I like to ask these questions to get a feel of every person. What's one thing you do every day to start your morning off right?

34:10 - Andy (Host)
Eddie, my wife and I started exercising together. It's a program called CrossFit and it's kind of a group exercise, un-air conditioned, unheated. We do it six, seven days a week in the morning, and that's how you have to invest in taking care of your body. And you know why do you work out? You work out because you can't take your health for granted, so you've got to invest in your health. That gives you energy, it gives you discipline. So that's just very, very important.

34:44 - Samy (Host)
Love it. I actually play ice hockey on a weekly basis. Okay for you. Yeah, that's my real Canadian side. Second question is what?

34:57 - Andy (Host)
is a hobby or interest that you have outside of work that most people don't know about. Andy, a hobby or interest I like languages. I am a student of foreign languages, so I'm fluent in Spanish and French. Fluent in Spanish and French, and I've studied a lot of modern Greek, japanese, some Italian. I'm about to start on German. I've got a gift for accent. That's a passion of mine. Like Hebrew, I forgot Hebrew. Yes, I've studied Hebrew.

35:24 - Samy (Host)
I love that. What about any book or podcast that you're really into?

35:29 - Andy (Host)
I would say the podcast Acquire. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Yeah absolutely I love it. They are very long. I just finished listening to the Visa one After three or four hours. You really get to know these companies and these guys really invest time and true brainpower to dig into a company and it's very interesting.

35:55 - Samy (Host)
I love that. Okay, and last one is what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self, Andy?

36:03 - Andy (Host)
Always keep pushing. I don't want to say assume every day is your last day, but have an intensity of life as if it's your last day. I also believe that you have to be nice, both personal and professional, in the little things. You certainly got to be demanding, you have to have performance, but in life you have to be nice in little ways. It's very important.

36:36 - Samy (Host)
Andy, thank you so much for your incredible insight today.

36:39 - Andy (Host)
Thank, you for taking the time. It's been a true pleasure and I look forward to spending more time with you soon.

36:47 - Samy (Host)
Absolutely, and we're going to be sharing some of your information as well in the links below. So thank you again, andy. For anyone who would like to know more about Andy and the Rockstep ways and as well as Rockstep Capital, check them out at rockstepcom. We'll be sharing all that information, andy. Thank you so much and looking forward to hosting you, hopefully another time.

37:05 - Andy (Host)
Absolutely, Samy, take care.