The CRE Connection · Samy Soussan

00:00 - Samy (Host)
Welcome to the Commercial Real Estate Connection podcast, the place where we connect with the brightest minds in commercial real estate, uncovering their secrets, strategies and captivating stories. I'm your host, sammy Susan, here to serve as your guide and connector-in-chief on this exciting journey. Together, we'll dive deep into the world of commercial real estate, exploring the ins and outs of this dynamic industry. Our goal is to discover the true power of meaningful connections along the way, so get ready to plug in, engage and elevate your commercial real estate journey. Hey, welcome back everyone for another episode of the Commercial Real Estate Connection podcast. I'm your host, sammy Susan, and today we're incredibly honored to host a true titan of the industry, mr Bob Knackle. Bob has been in the commercial real estate scene for over 40 years and has an incredible amount of experience in the brokerage industry I would say a living legend in the New York real estate scene.

00:49
Just to go, a brief background, bob, I know you started your career in 1984. There's a lot of history behind that and, just to be concise here, but you quickly made a serious mark in the industry, eventually co-founding Massey Knackle alongside Paul Massey in 1988. And from 88 to 2014, pretty much dominated New York's buildings sales and closing over 6,000 transactions worth over $23 billion in assets. That is extremely impressive, bob. You have a lot of experience in leadership eventually brought you to selling the company to Kushman and Wakefield in 2014, and it is a tremendous honor for us to host you. I can go on and on about your credentials, but I'm really, really excited to have you on the episode, so thanks for joining us today, bob.

01:30 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Thanks, sammy. It's a pleasure to be with you and I really appreciate having me on.

01:34 - Samy (Host)
So, bob, just to give you a little bit of a background. One of the things I really enjoy sharing on our podcast is a brief background, a little history, getting to know our guests. So one of the questions I'd like to ask you is who was little Bob? Just to get to know a little bit of what were your aspirations? Was real estate something that you really wanted to get into growing up? And maybe you can share a little bit about your background and how it actually fell into commercial real estate?

01:56 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Yeah, well, I'll tell you. Bob Knackle grew up in a little town in Bergen County, new Jersey, called Maywood, right between Poremsa and Hackensack. We were so small we didn't even have our own high school, I had to go to Hackensack. I played a lot of sports as a kid, which is what gave me my competitive spirit. I think Love diving head first into things. You know snow days were my favorite days. I was up earlier on snow days than school days. And now with my shovels shoveling everybody's walk and driveway in the neighborhood as a young kid, make two at $300 a day Back in those days that was a ton, but that was me growing up.

02:35
And then, you know, fortunate enough to get into the Wharton School at Penn, wanted to be a Wall Street guy Because I thought Coldwell Banker was a bank. I got a summer job at Coldwell Banker and absolutely loved it, went back my next two summers and, you know, one thing led to another. Cb offered me a job in Manhattan when I got out of school. But I got into the business completely by accident, looking for an investment banking job. When I found out Coldwell Banker was a real estate company I almost didn't go on the interview, but they were the only ones higher in college. Get to the summer and you know, the rest is history.

03:11 - Samy (Host)
So Bob, that's a pretty incredible journey. I mean going from wanting to be a baseball player to commercial real estate. It's quite the change. Maybe you can give us a little bit of background about your family, how you kind of grew up. What was it like growing up in New Jersey, and is commercial real estate something that your parents were looking forward to you doing, or do they have something else in mind for you?

03:31 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
No, no, no, not really. I mean, dad was a came up through education. He was a science teacher, then a vice principal and then a high school principal at Maui High Fortunately not the high school I went to. The principal of my school's son went to our high school and it was really tough for him. So I'm glad I didn't go to my dad's high school.

03:52
My mom was a housewife and I had an older brother and you know we grew up in this small town. I had a group of friends that I went to kindergarten with. About seven of us remained friends to this day, two of whom are among my closest friends, and you know it was a quintessential small town childhood. You know we'd go up to school, we'd go to the park and play basketball or street hockey or baseball or football, and the fire department would blow the whistle at six o'clock and that was the signal for everybody to go home and have dinner. So it was that kind of upbringing.

04:30
And you know I remember. You know my folks never went on a honeymoon. Actually, they had always wanted to go to Hawaii, never made it. But put me through the Wharton School and I remember telling my dad that I was going to take a commission job in New York City and I could tell by the look on his face he was really concerned that after paying for this great Ivy League education, his son was going to go be a commissioned salesperson. But you know he was a good support about it and you know fortunately things started going, you know well, after a couple of years. So all was good.

05:08 - Samy (Host)
So that's, that's fascinating, completely different career path than what you anticipated. I always find that really interesting because I think that most people think that the the direct path to success in your career is kind of doing doing the same thing from a young age. And that's the plan. We always ask our kids you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? And then we kind of see that people kind of figure out their own path as they're, as they're going, and it'll change.

05:34 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
It'll change a hundred times. I mean, I feel very fortunate that you know I got into real estate at a young age. You know, the fact is, after that first summer at CB, you know, I said, hey, this real estate business is really cool. But you know, was I 100% convinced? Not really.

05:50
In one of my classes, first semester, sophomore year was was entrepreneurial management, and we had a speaker come in and he said you know, I was sitting in the seat you're sitting in 20 years ago and I got to tell you I know you all want to go work on Wall Street. I'm the happiest person I know and I sell dog boot. And he went on to tell a story about how he, you know, wanted to be a Wall Street guy and he got into pet food and pet supplies and everything. And he said I love what I do, find what you love, find what you're passionate about. And that was the thing that said you know what? I'm really going to give this real estate thing a try, went back my next summer, loved it next summer and you know, then the rest is history.

06:33
But that was, you know, serendipitously stumbling into the job and then having that speaker and I wish I remembered that guy's name because he really made a profound impact on my life and I wish I could figure out who that was. But it really made me think, you know what. Maybe I should really give this real estate thing a shot. And I feel so blessed that I got into the business at such a young age because in those days commercial real estate for most people was a second, third or fourth career, you know, and at the time in the early 80s, I took every real estate course that Warton offered. I think there were only five or six of them, you know. Today there's probably 30 or 40. And you know, we see so many kids that are in college looking for internships and much more common for a younger person to be interested in real estate today. But back in those days it was, you know, not your first career and I feel fortunate that I get into it so young.

07:31 - Samy (Host)
I love that and I definitely want to get more into how you kind of got involved into investment sales and why you picked specifically that particular path. But just to dive in a little bit into your timeline, so you began your career in 1984. That's pretty much where you started. What was that like, coming out of Warton, you know, starting your commercial real estate business, investment sales? I'm sure there must have been a lot more experienced people than you and must have been a big learning curve. What was that like coming into such a large company?

08:01 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Yeah, well, at the time CB had about 50 or 60 brokers leasing office space, about 20 in the retail leasing division, in building sales. When I arrived there were four people, three of whom had over 20 years of experience, and Paul Massey, who had just gotten out of a one year training program. So I show up the first day and bosses, a Massey just got out of a training program, follow him around, He'll show you your way, where the coffee machine is and where the mentor is and that kind of thing. And so day two on the job, paul and I said, hey, these guys with 20 years of experience aren't going to spend a lot of time talking to us, it looks like. So why don't we just work together, split everything 50-50, see how it goes?

08:44
And in those days we just we picked two relatively small territories. We said let's get to know everything about these neighborhoods and really offer some value to our clients and the people who are going to sell buildings in these neighborhoods and just one by one started making up a mailing list calling them. We were writing content back there and I often say that we were doing social media before social media even existed and social media was what my good buddy Ed Winslow refers to as proof stacking, where we were sending out information proving that we knew the market, proving that we were able to do sales, proving that we had been there and done that and just kept sending mailings over and over and over again. And as we grew the company, the company adopted that same exact practice and before email became prevalent, we were sending out three million pieces of hard mail a year.

09:39
Wow, we were just carpet bombing the marketplace. If you own property in New York City, you were getting messy knackle mail all the time and when you thought about selling, you called us. You mentioned we had done 6,000 transactions in total from the time the Coast Guard Group started tracking sales in New York, which is in 2001. From 2001 to 2014, the number two company in New York had sold 1,300 buildings. We had sold over 4,000. So we lapped the field by more than three times. It was a completely dominant platform and it was all based on realizing we weren't in the real estate business.

10:21 - Samy (Host)
We were in the information business and we did everything we could to make the quality and the integrity behind our information better than anyone else at that really helps me understand the next question, which was you're there for four years at CB and now you decide, you and Paul, you want to go out, open up and start going from Y. Being an entrepreneur is very tough. That's a really difficult position to put yourself into. And on top of that, I mean, how did you kind of differentiate yourself from the other larger firms? I'm sure there was a lot of much larger firms than you guys were, yet you still were willing to tackle that. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit on that?

11:01 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Well, number one I think something that helped us was that at the time when we started the firm, I was 26, paul was 28, and we just didn't know any better.

11:11
We didn't know all the pitfalls that were out there and all the things that could pop up and bite you, and so I think part of it was just vaulting ambition, part of it was blind faith, and part of it was that not the boss that was there when we left, but the first boss we had at CB.

11:30
You know, we were supposed to be working on a system with ground rules, and when one of the older guys had come up with a deal that was in our territory, he did want to bring us in on it and he was supposed to per the rules, and the boss said hey guys, sorry, but you know you're not going to be included and we're like what the heck? I thought the rules were supposed to apply to everybody, and so that was a major, major point of how we ran Masi Nackle. We had had ground rules for how everything was done, and those rules applied to everyone equally. Same rules applied to the kid that showed up the first day on the job as it did to Paul and I and everybody was on a level playing field and it really made a big difference in the way the company was run.

12:19 - Samy (Host)
That's impressive, I mean. So you kind of took those lessons that you and Paul learned and basically decided this is exactly what we don't want to do, and use those lessons to be the motive and the drive to deciding to go out on your own and founding your own company. That's actually really awesome. Can you share some of the challenges that you faced when opening up your own firm and going out on your own? I know the entrepreneurial spirit is always exciting. There's so much ahead of you. But what are some of the challenges that you guys faced during those moments of starting and maybe you could share how you guys overcame them for our listeners?

13:00 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Yeah, well, you know, sammy, one of the biggest challenges was that we didn't know enough to go ask senior people for advice. So we did many, many things by trial and error and consequently made hundreds of mistakes. Fortunately, we didn't make a lot of them twice, but a lot of trial and error which wasted a lot of time. We delayed bringing people on to help. We should have done that earlier. If you want to talk about using people who have expertise, great book is Benjamin Hardy and Van Sullivan's book who, not how, and the thesis of that book is every time you ask yourself how am I going to get this done? You're asking the wrong question. Who can I get to do this for me?

13:49
And so every time we hired a new person whether it was a director of HR, whether it was a CFO, whether it was COO every time we added a layer of employee that could relieve us of some of the things we were doing, we saw big pops in our ability to produce business and generate revenue. And we were very slow to do that At the beginning. We thought, oh, let's just have our secretary do the books, and our burn rate was $15,000 a month and about a year in we had about we were $60,000 in arrears on our bills. So a lot of mistakes. Running a business is not easy, but I think the biggest mistake was we should have done more homework of trying to understand the pros and the cons. Maybe it's better that we didn't, because maybe if we had found out all those cons we may not have started the business. But a little bit more due diligence about what the heck we were getting ourselves into would have served us well.

14:55 - Samy (Host)
That's really funny. I mean, I guess the job of an investment sales broker is primarily to provide some sort of elements of due diligence when buying a property. Really interesting to me that you mentioned how you and Paul went out on your own. You made some mistakes. I think that's something that I always find really important. I've heard this a number of times from a number of people that I've spoken to always looking back at your career and thinking who are the mentors that have helped me, who are the people that helped me become successful? And what I've personally found that I've heard is that mentors are pivotal in the success of someone in the commercial real estate business. They're not just necessary, they're not just good to have, but they're extremely crucial in this business. Can you share a little bit, maybe, about what your experiences were like in that area?

15:44 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Sure, I think again I said earlier on, we really didn't seek out the advice and counsel of older or experienced folks. That changed as things went on. In fact, in the later years we formed an advisory board which had some unbelievably smart people on it that really helped us. One of those advisory board members and a personal mentor for me was Steve Siegel, who was the global head of brokerage at CBERE today. Steve taught me many, many great lessons, and talking to him about the business and circumstances and things like that really was very, very helpful. But a lot of people helped out. A lot of clients provided great insight into things I found out. As I got older and older in the business, I asked more and more questions. Usually it's the opposite. I think younger people tend to ask a lot of questions For us. I think as we've gotten older, we tend to ask more questions. I think listening to people and hearing stories you always can look at things through a different lens. It's great to hear the experiences that other people have had Awesome.

17:02 - Samy (Host)
I love that and I guess you're right you can learn something from someone who's a lot younger than you. I think particularly nowadays, when technology has completely shifted the landscape of the way we do business, is extremely important to really kind of gauge all the relationships that you have around you, to learn what they have to offer and to segue from that. You know that aspect of technology and how that's shifted the market somehow. Bob, in the past year you've exploded in the social media scene. Can you share a little bit about what that's been like? You know you go from having an extremely successful career in commercial real estate investment sales and now almost 30, maybe 40 years in the business, you decide to get involved in the social media world. Can you share a little bit about number one, what motivated you to get into that and what's that been like? What's that experience of now being in that social media world than like for your business and on a personal level as well?

18:01 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Sure, well, you know I joke around and say that the reason I'm on social media now is peer pressure, a lot of people saying, hey, bob, you know you should get on social media. It's great, you're going to meet people, you got great stories to share. Yep, they really do this, and for a long time. It's like you know who has time for this? Busy making deals, et cetera, et cetera. And kind of what is sunk into me is the world is changing so much. And I think you know if I think back to 1984 when I started, no computer on my desk, no fax machine, no cell phone, and you look at how dramatically things have changed and what things are like today. But I think, notwithstanding how much things have changed over the last 40 years, I think the extent to which things are going to change over the next five years is going to be even greater. Because of technology, the world continues to get smaller and smaller. Ai is an extraordinarily powerful thing and I really think that the change over the next five years is going to be dramatic. So I said to myself, hey, you got to get on board with these things or you're going to get run over. So I said you know, let me give social media trial trial for three months.

19:17
I always written content back, going back to when I started. I was writing articles, market reports, et cetera. I write a column for the commercial observer newspaper. Moe is writing and so creating content. Not a problem for me, I was used to doing it anyway. So now I create all my own content. I write everything on Sunday, send it to Moe Regalotto, who's my social media manager. She takes care of all the post thing and everything she does, and so it's been great. And I'm just shocked at the relationships that have come from it, the business opportunities that have come from it. And you know, I think that fortunately, you know I'd save boxes and boxes of stuff from the old days and a lot of that stuff I share with people and it seems like it is received very well. So it's a little bit of a different type of content than most people are posting, and I think that may have something to do with the relatively good traction I've got.

20:18 - Samy (Host)
I love that. I think that a lot of people post content and, you know, just for the sake of creating content and whereas it seems like almost you're kind of the opposite, you're kind of, you know, just putting content out there because you have what to share and all your years of experience have actually now allow you to show that in a public platform. So, first of all, thank you. I always appreciate reading your posts and what you share on LinkedIn, and it's very meaningful to have professionals and people that have a vast amount of experience who are not only actively doing so but willing to share that knowledge with others.

20:59
So, bob, I want to share a question from a friend of mine. His name is Alex. He's actually an investment sales broker here in Houston at Marcus and Melanchap, and when I asked him what would be a question you'd want to know from Bob, but he asked a falling question. So if it's cool, I'm going to ask this. And he asked us follows was there a moment in your career where you were focused on selling a certain type of property and you wanted to make a leap into being a player and maybe a more desirable sector of your asset class? And, if so, how did you kind of change your branding to be able to compete with competitors that are already established in and that desired area and not let your bold reputation get in the way?

21:42 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
That is a great question. I will tell you that I never made a conscious decision to change focus until very recently. You know, back in the old days, the Massey and Ackle platform was essentially a residential farming approach, where you know residential brokers pick a neighborhood, they go, knock on everybody's door and try to make relationships. We were doing the same thing. We took a block within the city, went around and talked to every property owner and every block and moved to the next block and then started over where we got through the last block, and we were just trying to differentiate ourselves by being market experts, knowing everything that was happening in the neighborhood who was buying, who was selling, what the average price was, average price per square foot for each product type, average cap rate, what new developments were going on, what new tenants were moving into the area, want to know everything about everything and convey that to the owners. That gave us a competitive advantage In terms of switching what I mentioned, I've done something recently.

22:42
You know I'm trying to focus more on two product types. The first one is land in the city. I've done a significant amount of land sales in the city and that's I focused on that. On social media I've also done. I've probably sold 12 or 1300 apartment buildings out of the 2300 buildings I've sold. So I still do a lot of multifamily. I'm trying to not do as much of the rest of the type of transactions you know included, depending on who the client is. You know, I think you have to decide what you want to focus on and then just dive in and try to be a market expert at that.

23:22
Specialization is so important and I think if you focused on one type of transaction and then want to consciously get into another type, that can be difficult. But you just have to make the determination that that's what you're going to do, pull the plug and go for it. I think geographic specialization worked in the 80s and 90s. Today I think product specialization is much more important. You know, over the years our average deal size got bigger and bigger and but that happened organically. That was not a conscious decision. You know as young kids, right out of school, we couldn't get a listing on the Empire State Building, so we got the little buildings and sold them and got a few more little buildings. And you know, year by year the average deal size increased and so that's how we got into the larger transaction market, but I think that you know if you're going to switch product types from one type of product to another type of product, I think that's a heavy lift and you have to do it very, very thoughtfully and in a very intentional way. I love that.

24:26 - Samy (Host)
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I know we're limited on time, bob, so I'm going to ask you one last question and then just a couple of quick rapid fire questions. So the last question I just want to understand is and one of the main focuses that I try to really put an emphasis on is the value of building relationships. How do you go about building relationships in the industry, and what's the one piece of advice that you'd give to someone that's just starting out in that particular regard?

24:54 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Okay, I'll say I mean, I'll answer reverse order. Number one how do you, how do you build a database? How do you, how do you build relationships? Number one you should be getting a card or contact information for every single person you meet, whether you're doing a tour, you're out getting ice cream, you go to a networking event, whatever it is. You meet somebody in the business, whether they're directly involved or tangentially involved. Get their information, put it on a list and keep in touch with them regularly. And that's really the key to developing relationships with people who are in your target audience is get full information, offer them stuff of value all the time, market information, opportunities to invest what have you and make sure you keep in touch with them regularly. You work hard to develop a relationship and generate trust with someone. Don't lose that by letting it slip away because you're not in regular contact with them. Have a cadence for getting in touch with everybody on all of your lists.

25:58 - Samy (Host)
I love that. That's great. All right, now some just some quick rapid fire questions. Bob, what's one thing you do every day to start your morning off right?

26:04 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
I got to get to the gym and workout Love it.

26:08 - Samy (Host)
And what's a one hobby or interest that you have outside of work? I know you love work and I know you do that, but some of the most people don't know about.

26:17 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
I collect game used Mark Messier hockey equipment.

26:20 - Samy (Host)
That's awesome, I'm a I'm a big hockey fan, grew up Montreal and I'm a big Canadian span, but Mark Messier was absolutely a legend.

26:30 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Yep, I am 62 of his game. More in jerseys burning. Some great ones His rookie jersey that he scored his first goal in against Rogi Pashon. His first Ranger jersey that he ever wore. The jersey he wore in Vancouver. The score is 600th goal, the three or four of the jerseys that he won cups in. So it's. It's been a great hobby. I've been doing it for about 30 years and I love it.

26:58 - Samy (Host)
That is a fascinating hobby. I love that. All right, and now can you share one book or podcast that you've been really enjoying lately?

27:06 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
I love the Ben Hardy and Dan Sullivan books. I actually have a suggested reading list of books that I think are very helpful for real estate brokers. If anybody would like it, just reach out to me at bopnacklejllcom. I'd love that Happy to share it with you. But the Ben Hardy and Dan Sullivan books I mentioned who, not how. They also wrote 10 X is easier than 2 X and the gap in the game Three unbelievable books that I think everyone should read, but there's so much great stuff out there you can learn from. So, but those are three great ones. There are a dozen or 15 others that are on my list that are fantastic as well. All right?

27:45 - Samy (Host)
Great, I'm looking forward to getting that list. And lastly, bob, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self?

27:55 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Just to keep at it. Keep doing it. Realize that this is not a fancy business. It's a fundamental business the blocking and tackling business. Do those things consistently, do them over and over and always do the right thing. Treat every client like they're your mom or your dad, and then that will save you from making mistakes. Give the right advice, even if it's not in your best interest. Always do it in the client's best interest. If you don't, they'll know it immediately. Do it in their best interest. Give them great advice. Pretend that you're parents, and if you always do in the right thing, it'll come back to you. That's a fantastic piece of advice.

28:34 - Samy (Host)
I love that. Bob. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm really grateful for taking time and appreciate you being part of our show. It really means a lot. We'll share your information in the actual podcast later, but thank you very much again for joining and for sharing your insights and valuable resources in the industry and I'm really looking forward to continue to learn from you and to see the great things that are coming next in your chapter in your career.

29:01 - Bob Knakal (Guest)
Sammy, thanks so much for having me on and I hope everyone wish you all the success in the world.

29:08 - Samy (Host)
Thank you so much again, bob, and thanks again to all our listeners. We appreciate you and look forward to connecting on our next podcast of a CR reconnection.